On Yahoo Answers someone called Rowen raised pertinent questions around Grouply. Unfortunately this Rowen seems to have been simply repeating verbatim something that he or she considers a "reliable source".
Now there is an extremely healthy debate around Grouply, but Rowen's reliable source has sent him or her barking mad up the wrong tree in so many ways that this seems more intent on spreading rumour than dealing with verifiable facts.
The first problem is that they talk about Grouply as if it was a Yahoo Group. Now in fact there is a group, on Y!G's called Grouply. I know because I am a member. The group is largely dormant and only has a handful of members, but that is not the point. The point is that the current debate is around Grouply the service. This is something so totally different: chalk and cheese.
The second problem is that somehow giving a reputable company your Yahoo ID and password implies they can and do mass mailings. Excuse me but people, including spammers don't need a Yahoo ID and password to do mass mailings. There are a range of tools that you can get for free to do mass mailings. And certainly if you are going to spam you jolly well keep your head below the parapet when doing it.
It's just like someone saying a chicken lays eggs so let's have 5 sausages to eat.
I could steer a whole barrage of battleships through the question, but in the interests of brevity I will conclude with saying that the questioner has chosen an answer that says the solution is to use some spyware. Don't get me wrong, I am a great advocate of spyware and consider it of better value in the security game than anti-virus tools. But that is not the point.
The point is that it is another example of chicken and sausages.
Now what I like best about the questioner is that they have chosen an anwer
Well Rowen, you have just proved how disreputable your source is and if that is the quality of information on which you depend - they I would recommend you change your friends, instantly.
You see Rowen, a "group" (in the Yahoo sense) mostly contains messages. Some groups may not discuss nice things. But that is the limit of the damage they can do. You see Rowen, you are implying that using Yahoo Groups is somehow dangerous, and I am not sure that Yahoo would like that implication.
Now in case you think that I am taking a dig at Rowen, think again. We can all do better and we all need to improve ourselves. But please Rowen, do some real homework. If you really are quoting your source then do yourself a favour and find someone else since, I am sad to say, this one is not on planet earth. I recommend some of the people on GrouplyComplaints. Some of the posters there can make cogent arguments.
Tuesday, 12 February 2008
Monday, 11 February 2008
Loud and clear
I remember reading one post on EL-M concerning Grouply which I would like to pick up on right now. The question was asked, why hadn't Grouply somehow fixed all these security issues right at the beginning. In response I quipped, or wanted to quip, that perhaps the reason was that it would take a massive budget to fix ever bug in advance, and one that is not easily available to a startup company.
However there is a deeper reason. Firstly let us look at the marketplace of services similar to Yahoo groups. Well, there is Google Groups which after some years is a close parallel. Is there anything else that's close?
And what is so unique that makes Yahoo Groups continue to grow apace? It is its flexibility (in terms of being usable from email and from a website) and its almost unique security & moderation controls.
And so Grouply enters the fray. Initially it has focused its development on getting the thing working. By that I means that it has provided an alternative platform that is something between email and the Yahoo Groups website. On top of that it adds a so-called Web 2.0 interface.
Where Grouply was a week or two ago was a running service from a user perspective. Rightly or wrongly they had hardly any features aimed at moderators. And so we come to the question.
Who knows what moderators want? Who knows what moderators need? The only possible answer to that is moderators. Right now moderators are pumping ideas into Grouply that they want and need.
Could Grouply have pre-empted these thoughts? Well I consider myself a guru in my own little way on owning and moderating my own groups. But if there is one thing I have learnt over the last few days is that other people have very different ideas.
Am I deluded in my own knowledge? I think not. One key to Yahoo Groups is the very flexible security model. That flexibility has resulted in vastly different ways in which groups are controlled, from very hands-off to very hands-on. From groups that have public archives and anyone, even non-group members can post, through "sensibly" controlled groups where membership requires approval and posts are moderated to groups where only the owner posts.
The moderator community is saying that it will dictate its terms on the security to be implemented and Grouply is then negotiating around that agenda. Could that have been done up-front? Good question.
For me the answer is that no matter how many security features Grouply might have implemented before now, right now whatever they had done would have been off-beam. Yes they might have got some things right, but still they would have got a lot wrong, and my guess is the same kind of flak would have been thrown, just different words.
Fortunately for everyone, the moderator community is speaking loud and clear - and Grouply are working with that.
However there is a deeper reason. Firstly let us look at the marketplace of services similar to Yahoo groups. Well, there is Google Groups which after some years is a close parallel. Is there anything else that's close?
And what is so unique that makes Yahoo Groups continue to grow apace? It is its flexibility (in terms of being usable from email and from a website) and its almost unique security & moderation controls.
And so Grouply enters the fray. Initially it has focused its development on getting the thing working. By that I means that it has provided an alternative platform that is something between email and the Yahoo Groups website. On top of that it adds a so-called Web 2.0 interface.
Where Grouply was a week or two ago was a running service from a user perspective. Rightly or wrongly they had hardly any features aimed at moderators. And so we come to the question.
Who knows what moderators want? Who knows what moderators need? The only possible answer to that is moderators. Right now moderators are pumping ideas into Grouply that they want and need.
Could Grouply have pre-empted these thoughts? Well I consider myself a guru in my own little way on owning and moderating my own groups. But if there is one thing I have learnt over the last few days is that other people have very different ideas.
Am I deluded in my own knowledge? I think not. One key to Yahoo Groups is the very flexible security model. That flexibility has resulted in vastly different ways in which groups are controlled, from very hands-off to very hands-on. From groups that have public archives and anyone, even non-group members can post, through "sensibly" controlled groups where membership requires approval and posts are moderated to groups where only the owner posts.
The moderator community is saying that it will dictate its terms on the security to be implemented and Grouply is then negotiating around that agenda. Could that have been done up-front? Good question.
For me the answer is that no matter how many security features Grouply might have implemented before now, right now whatever they had done would have been off-beam. Yes they might have got some things right, but still they would have got a lot wrong, and my guess is the same kind of flak would have been thrown, just different words.
Fortunately for everyone, the moderator community is speaking loud and clear - and Grouply are working with that.
Sunday, 10 February 2008
Help fight spam
There are a lot of people who have complained about Grouply causing spam. Take this posting on gather.com as just one example.
Now its not that I don't believe people, but as far as I know Grouply should actually inhibit spam. Also across all my groups I have not seen one shred of evidence. Perhaps I am lucky! Anyway I conclude from that is that it must be one or more members of particular groups that are using Grouply to spam.
Now, I am sure that some of the developments in Grouply that are being worked on as we speak will block some potential loopholes, and already I know of one that was addressed where a member could send messages to a group with a stock message.
However if there is some further way that Grouply is being abused by spammers then it really is important for everyone to help eradicate that. If someone sends me a copy of a spam to my email, it would be much appreciated. This may just help Grouply to find any loophole used by a spammer - and block it.
Now its not that I don't believe people, but as far as I know Grouply should actually inhibit spam. Also across all my groups I have not seen one shred of evidence. Perhaps I am lucky! Anyway I conclude from that is that it must be one or more members of particular groups that are using Grouply to spam.
Now, I am sure that some of the developments in Grouply that are being worked on as we speak will block some potential loopholes, and already I know of one that was addressed where a member could send messages to a group with a stock message.
However if there is some further way that Grouply is being abused by spammers then it really is important for everyone to help eradicate that. If someone sends me a copy of a spam to my email, it would be much appreciated. This may just help Grouply to find any loophole used by a spammer - and block it.
Fixes are rolling out
The Grouply Improvements group is having an effect. The first fix that came out was an unsubbing tool that does not require manual intervention, which is available from the settings page.
Grouply are working on other issues as they are clarified by the group. The moderators of the group are also working hard to keep issues separated, but naturally there is overlap and confusion - and perhaps differences of opinion in some instances. One such are is regarding opt-0ut and opt-in. My guess is that such things will be implemented and the first implementation will work for some people but others will need to explain why it does not work for them and their privacy needs.
Rather than looking at the differences, what seems impressive to me is the consort of opinion that seems to be in the group at the moment. If Grouply are able to implement these to the satisfaction of the majority, then the my guess is service should be able to lose its beta epithet.
But there is a way to go yet.
Grouply are working on other issues as they are clarified by the group. The moderators of the group are also working hard to keep issues separated, but naturally there is overlap and confusion - and perhaps differences of opinion in some instances. One such are is regarding opt-0ut and opt-in. My guess is that such things will be implemented and the first implementation will work for some people but others will need to explain why it does not work for them and their privacy needs.
Rather than looking at the differences, what seems impressive to me is the consort of opinion that seems to be in the group at the moment. If Grouply are able to implement these to the satisfaction of the majority, then the my guess is service should be able to lose its beta epithet.
But there is a way to go yet.
Saturday, 9 February 2008
Yahoo Groups on Grouply
There are three Yahoo Groups on the subject of Grouply.
- Grouply-faq which provides general tips and tricks etc,
- Grouply_and_freecycling which is aimed at understanding features aimed at the freecycle community.
- GrouplyImprovements which is aimed at moderators wanting to influence Grouply and
Yahoo TOS and Grouply
Paragraph 5 of Yahoo's terms of service covers the care that you should take with your Yahoo userid and password. If I may quote that paragraph,
What I take from this is that Yahoo explicitly does not say that you can expose your password or id to anyone. What it implies is that if you do then you must act responsibly.
So for example, if you write your password down on a piece of paper and stick it next to your computer you must decide if that is acting responsibly. If you tell a partner, relation or friend your password then you must decide if that is a responsible thing to do.
Similarly if you enter your password into a secured and encrypted system such as Grouply then you must personally decide if that is a responsible thing to do. The emphasis is on what you personally decide.
Also did Grouply ask your for authorisation for your password? Is that in their terms and conditions?
So you must decide if Grouply is a bona-fide company. You can do this by checking its legal status. You can also check its investors out. You can also ask whether Grouply stores the password securely. Also does Grouply keep you in full control of your password at all times, including the possibility to delete or change it. Finally is Grouply's approach to privacy backed by any independently verifiable process.
If the answer to all of these is positive then is there anything more that you could do? If the answer is that you have covered all bases, then surely you have acted responsibly. On this conclusion would I argue that using Grouply is a safe thing to do.
"You will receive a password and account designation upon completing the Service's registration process. You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of the password and account and are fully responsible for all activities that occur under your password or account. You agree to (a) immediately notify Yahoo! of any unauthorized use of your password or account or any other breach of security, and (b) ensure that you exit from your account at the end of each session. Yahoo! cannot and will not be liable for any loss or damage arising from your failure to comply with this Section 5."
What I take from this is that Yahoo explicitly does not say that you can expose your password or id to anyone. What it implies is that if you do then you must act responsibly.
So for example, if you write your password down on a piece of paper and stick it next to your computer you must decide if that is acting responsibly. If you tell a partner, relation or friend your password then you must decide if that is a responsible thing to do.
Similarly if you enter your password into a secured and encrypted system such as Grouply then you must personally decide if that is a responsible thing to do. The emphasis is on what you personally decide.
Also did Grouply ask your for authorisation for your password? Is that in their terms and conditions?
So you must decide if Grouply is a bona-fide company. You can do this by checking its legal status. You can also check its investors out. You can also ask whether Grouply stores the password securely. Also does Grouply keep you in full control of your password at all times, including the possibility to delete or change it. Finally is Grouply's approach to privacy backed by any independently verifiable process.
If the answer to all of these is positive then is there anything more that you could do? If the answer is that you have covered all bases, then surely you have acted responsibly. On this conclusion would I argue that using Grouply is a safe thing to do.
Is Grouply a case of Identity Theft?
Someone has kindly asked the question on Yahoo Answers as to whether Grouply is a case of Identity theft. This is a silly question since the basic premise of Grouply is that they properly gain your permission up front in an honest way, whereas Identity theft is most often done in the background. Not only that but with identity theft your details so captured are used for private purposes that you have not authorised. There has not been a single instance of anyone insinuating this.
Above and beyond this Grouply have for some time provided the independent services of TrustE to provide assurance to anyone who is concerned about privacy. They will investigate on your behalf. To date they have not reported any substantiated complaints in any way.
I can give guarantee you that should TrustE report some serious misdeed you will hear it here as soon as possible.
Above and beyond this Grouply have for some time provided the independent services of TrustE to provide assurance to anyone who is concerned about privacy. They will investigate on your behalf. To date they have not reported any substantiated complaints in any way.
I can give guarantee you that should TrustE report some serious misdeed you will hear it here as soon as possible.
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